Recently I received a request for advice from an individual that brought home to me in a big way the phenomenon of our age that I discuss in my new book Character Disturbance. So, I thought it might be helpful to reproduce an edited version of letter, and to discuss its implications:
I am a 29 year-old female. Nearly 3 years ago I got engaged to a man whom I’ve loved for 10 years. We’ve now been married 2 years and we are expecting our first baby. This man still treats me like a princess.
However, while I was still engaged to my now husband, I started an affair with a colleague (my boss at that time) who is 19 years older. He is also married, and he has an elder son 3 years younger than me. I really don’t know how I got as involved with him as I did because I was really in love with my fiance at the time. But my colleague was charming, funny, powerful, strong, sexy, smart and quite persistent. What could I do? There was so much about him I simply couldn’t resist. After nearly a year of denial (first to myself, then to him only), I gave up and we lived out a strong and passionate love story! I never before had such striking emotional and sexual experiences! I thought I loved him, and he appeared as though he loved me too.
Eventually, the affair changed because I was becoming more demanding and more jealous. Once I even thought I would escape with him, only if he wanted to (I kept wanting him to want me so bad he’ take me away), and it seemed (at least to me) that he might just do that. But the fact is that I got married to my fiance and we moved to another country after the wedding. Still, this other man and I chatted all the time, had online sex and even watched sexy movies together online. We regularly (but not too often) met and had some beautiful 3-4 day escapes. However, I started to ask for more, it was becoming an obsession (even sexual) for me and, I guess, also for him, at least partly. We also started playing Second Life (the virtual-world game). During this time, he assured me that a “second life” was only fantasy and that I was the only one he was with apart from his wife. But then I discovered he was not only playing the online game with other women too but also having virtual sex with them. When he realized he was discovered he told me it was only a game and sent me a loveable email telling me I was the only one for him. He also told me he was seeing a psychologist for other problems and that I should understand.
In a way, everything changed and I just couldn’t believe him anymore after all that. Besides, he never gave me as much as I really wanted from him and he never really offered to escape with me. Sometimes I wonder if this whole affair has been an illusion on my part I also wonder if this man is really good enough for me or if he’s just a middle-aged man with mental disorder.
My problem is that I don’t how to forget him. I do wonder if he ever really loved me and whether our relationship was love or sexual obsession. I often feel like he doesn’t deserve me. But sex with him was fantastic. How do I go about forgetting him?
This woman’s complaint reveals just about every point I make in new book about what makes disturbed characters behave in the irresponsible ways they do. She claims that she has loved her now husband for 10 years and freely admits he treats her like a princess. But real princesses of good character are awed by the responsibility that comes with being a representative, figurehead, and role model, whereas other so-called “princesses” are really troubled characters who are so enamored of themselves and feel so entitled that they seek only to be gratified and indulged.
This woman’s level of self-centeredness and self-indulgence is pathological. And she expects to be swept up and carried away not only from any semblance of a more mundane existence (disturbed characters often crave excitement and engage in destructive hedonism) but from any sense of responsibility to her family (after all, she does have a husband and child). I responded to her this way:
You married a man with whom you have a child and whom you claim still treats you “like a princess.” And while you were engaged to this man, you began an affair with another man and continued it during your marriage. The man you had the affair with was a man willing to cheat on his own wife, and was engaging in virtual cheating (at least) with others. Neither of you had any compunctions about your behavior and you appear to openly revel and relish in the drama of it all. Several times, you expressed the hope that this man would help you “escape.” But you describe no circumstances from which any rational person might feel a reasonable need to escape. Rather, it’s a responsible life from which you seek to distance yourself.
The best way for you to forget this man is to turn your attention away from him and start focusing on the tremendous psychological unhealthiness in you. You have a husband and a child, yet somehow for you life is all about you and your insatiable appetite for excitement and self-gratification. There are reasons why you were attracted to a person with as few compunctions as yourself, just as there are reasons why you place drama and sexual titillation over genuine love and regard. Be sure to secure a counselor or therapist who has lots of experience dealing with personality and character issues. Your character disturbance appears quite significant and making a respect-worthy character of yourself will likely take years of unwavering effort.
Disturbed characters’ self-indulgence always creates a living hell for those around them but can also create one for themselves. This woman’s life will be a continual shipwreck until she makes up her mind to start accepting some responsibility for her actions and their impact on those she supposedly loves. And traditional therapy will not only not help her but has the potential to greatly prolong her persistent dream to “escape” the only true paths to health. You can read more about folks like her, what really makes them tick, and what needs to be done to “help” them in my new book.
Dr. Simon, I have been a big follower of you and your work since reading In Sheep’s Clothing, which is, in my mind, a masterpiece. I’m eagerly awaiting the release of your latest book. After reading the above case study, and it is transparent how lost and unaware the woman subject was and is and will likely continue to be, it also caught me off guard to read the response you shared with her.
Yes, her behavior is destructive towards others, insensitive, uncaring, self indulgent, showing little empathy, and needs corrective guidance yet the recommendation you offered seemed so pointed and aggressive that I believe she will dismiss the truth you offered and the help she needed. As they say in the restaurant business regarding food, it’s presentation, presentation, presentation.
First, this woman’s unawareness shows she has no idea how unhealthy her behavior is towards others or, as you taught me, that she knows yet just doesn’t care. So, either way, she most likely was shocked, and equally likely, highly offended, to the point she quickly dismissed the good you wished to impart to her.
You are the expert in your field and the trained professional and a fascinating teacher (in your books) for me. My input would be a softer but still direct approach, maybe by asking her questions about her behavior, may have had a greater (even if still slim) chance of reaching her and possibly getting her to see the carnage she’s creating for her husband and child, and for herself. Sadly, she just wants it to be about herself. Telling people this, as I personally learned, is usually fruitless.
Continued success. Can’t wait to read your new book.
My best,
Michael Toebe
Michael’s Quick Help Now
blog: http://michaeltoebe.com
site: http://michaelsquickhelpnow.com
I personally think this woman needed a strong dose of reality, and quickly! Therapeutic doesn’t always mean “speak softly and gently”. She seemed to have no remorse for her behavior, except with regard to herself. No amount of eggshell walking is going to get through to her, in my opinion–it seems she would unconsciously pick up on a soft,kind tone and decide that she was in love with you. Or manipulate you somehow. Manipulators who don’t realize it are the people you have to be extra crystal clear with. She obviously has fuzzy boundaries. The fact that she was seeking help is the perfect reason to be so direct. Count it as a moment of clarity. I am not judging this woman, we all do things we don’t understand. But in those cases, we need to focus on the here and now immediately before more damage is done.
Another day in “it’s all about patriarchy” hell.
It’s definitely possible that this woman has some character disorders: she is clearly deceitful, at least toward her husband. But this article assumes that monogamy and the nuclear, patriarchal family are “good,” and that polyamorous behavior is “bad.” I think that deceit is always bad, and that people who have more than one relationship going on should be honest about that with their partners. But in our society, there are such heavy penalties for people with normal attractions to more than one person that most people don’t find this possible.
For most of human history, the ideal of the monogamous patriarchal family did not exist. The family was one’s matrilineal kin. There were no husbands or fathers. Some societies are still like this: see A Society Without Husbands or Fathers: the Na of China. Also see Woman’s Evolution: from Matrilineal Clan to Patriarchal Family.
Sometimes I think that by forcing people into the lifetime monogamy straitjacket, which may not be normal or healthy for most people, our culture makes people into dysfunctional people with character disorders. Mr. Simon, have you considered the possibility that ideas about what constitutes a character disorder might not be absolute? That it could vary across time and place? Who decides what the rules are? And what are their motivations?
A hundred years ago, it was considered normal and good for men to virtually own their wives and children; nice women were not supposed to enjoy sex; men were allowed to fool around with impunity; and divorce was almost impossible. We think those ideas inhumane now; a hundred years from now, will people think that our monogamy expectations are silly and unnatural?
The patriarchal family is fundamentally unnatural, and it is the cause of most of the human misery I see around me.
The problem isn’t the patriarchal family, so much as it is a breach of contract. If the woman did not want to engage in a monogamous relationship, she should have chosen to engage in her hedonistic lifestyle alone–not try to have both. She was deceitful to the other party in her marriage–this is the problem which causes destruction. I think the Dr. stated the problems exactly, yet you seem to have applied it to your own values regarding human relationships. As you seemed to try to point out, you cannot impose your personal values on others with regard to therapy. If I sought you for therapy because my husband was cheating on me, I would not find it helpful that you think patriarchal societies should not exist. I would be upset because of deceit, and because I would not feel “special” to my husband. Whether or not you agree with my feelings about marriage has no bearings on how I will cope.
Thanks for your comments, Michael. I’m sure that many share your sentiments and viewpoints.
I must say that I anticipated some strong reactions to this post, which again I must point out is heavily edited. But as you can tell from at least your comment as well as at least one other, the opinions are quite divergent.
Just a few comments of my own:
It’s natural to assume that this woman is “unaware.” It’s also understandable that some might interpret the directness of dealing with core issues as unnecessarily “aggressive,” as that perspective is precisely what distinguishes the neurotic from the disturbed character.
But there is much more to this story, which I now feel obliged to outline in a supplemental post. Hopefully, that will help make the overall picture a bit more clear.
As I mentioned in my response to Michael, there is much more to this story. And, I wonder if the gender of the main character of the story were different, (e.g., a man who went ahead and married and then fathered a child with a woman but who also wanted to “escape” from her (and his responsibilities toward his child) with another woman whom he had been surreptitiously having an affair (as well as engaging in other irresponsible acts would have prompted the same questions you have and your view that confronting the irresponsibility is merely a reflection of “patriarchy.”
Much more to come on this story in a future post.
I was very close to becoming the OP at one point and from what she says I can relate a great deal. I had a strong voice (perhaps as strong as the voice going Indulge Indulge Indulge!) to not give in to this person and danced that line for years and years. I never did physically cheat on my husband but I came close enough to freaking out and seeking therapy.
I’m also 29 married for 3 years to a man who treats me like a princess with a daughter. However I was very tempted by this text book character disturbed person but I’m not sure that makes me character disturbed as well. I was using him as an emotional crutch to cope with a stressful home life (I met him when I was a teenager) and it took me a while to convince myself that I didn’t need this crutch though I still struggle with it daily. Our interactions especially in the beginning involved emotional trauma which could have been a factor for cementing this person in my head.
I did seek out therapy and it’s been great at keeping me focused and I cut off contact with this character disturbed person yet he is crafty enough to stay in the fringes of my peripheral vision through mutual friends to continue to take space in my head.
Trying to put myself into letter writers shoes I’m not sure if it’s so much as a need to escape as it is a need to self destruct. I long to interact with this person knowing it won’t lead anywhere but an empty pit of losing everything that is important to me yet it’s still there and it’s not logical. I’m focused on being there for my family but the triggers don’t go away. It could be an addiction to drama or feeling these strong emotions or something I haven’t figured out yet.
Thanks for the comments, Saj. While there are certainly some striking similarities between your situation and the one I describe in the post, there are also some important differences, most especially in the quality and level of thoughtful reflection about your circumstances that you describe making. Suffice it to say that not everyone who has struggled with some of the issues and temptations you describe is necessarily disturbed in character. And there are certainly some (neurotic) individuals who engage in behaviors that are ultimately destructive not out of pure self-indulgence and character deficiency but as a way of acting-out unconscious conflicts (including conflicts that might even predispose them to unconsciously self-destruct). The main problem comes, however, when we ASSUME without sufficient evidence, that EVERYONE who engages in hard to understand behavior MUST be doing so out of some sort of neurosis, unmet need, inner unhappiness, etc. Some people are simply under-developed characters who never came to terms with the need for boundaries, limits, self-discipline, honest self-appraisal, integrity, commitment, devotion, etc.. They are sometimes so self-absorbed that they simply don’t consider anyone or anything else. And engaging with them in a respectful and non-manipulative way about the core issues that need addressing is inherently a more provocative process.
I have read so much on your site and recognise so many day to day characters in my walk of life. As you suggest some causes are more ‘intentional’ than others, given the cognisance or lack thereof for any given behaviour. What is perturbing is that the ‘victims’ of such behaviour still have to engage in the whole gamut of emotions and deal with the fallout thereafter. Surely if communication is the key to the relationship – whatever the reason for the behaviour could be established by communication. Those who are merely immature in some area of their life can be coached (or maybe coaxed) into ‘growing up’; for the others – I lived with one of those(for 17 years) and if there is no willingness to change – and no desire to please others – get on with life and don’t let their bad behaviour spoil your life or alter your good behaviour.
Hello Dr. Simon,
I have the same questions as the 29 year old letter writer, which weren’t addressed in your response to her. The ones she writes at the end of her story.
“My problem is that I don’t how to forget him. I do wonder if he ever really loved me and whether our relationship was love or sexual obsession. I often feel like he doesn’t deserve me. But sex with him was fantastic. How do I go about forgetting him?”
I was a bit taken aback by your response to this woman too, because I was looking for a response to her questions and your response was altogether different.
Just to get away from the specifics of the letter writer’s story, and consider the questions from the point of view of a person who is not married, has no children and is not being deceitful or irresponsible with any third party.
One of the reasons I think that I and others are attracted to, and keep going back to relationships with manipulative people is that there are good things in that relationship too, such as physical and emotional intimacy, the warmth and smell of that person next to yours in bed, desire and being desired. When two people connect on those levels, it is hard to walk away from, hard to forget. These are basic human needs and in this modern western life, we seem to get so little of it. Well, at least I do, since finding a person who can be a potential life partner is not easy today. I break off one relationship and it can be years before I meet someone to whom I am attracted and vice versa on a deep level (I am not into casual encounters).
I was thinking about what might be the initial attraction (to explain this pattern of getting involved with people who are abusive and controlling), and concluded that it could be because the manipulative, disturbed, whatever, person comes across as confident, controlling, self-assured, knows what they want, and these characteristics are attractive to a neurotic person. Someone who treats you like a princess might have the opposite characteristics.
So, perhaps people get into abusive relationships because they are attracted to being controlled and stay in abusive relationships for the good stuff they experience in it, and tolerate a level of abuse as the price of that.
Thanks for your comments and questions, Anne.
There are so many tactics a manipulator can use to both seduce and control unsuspecting victims. Then, like getting “whiplash,” the victim only knows what’s hit them long after the damage is done – unless, of course, they’re clued-in to all the tactics manipulators use and know how to spot those tactics when they’re being employed.
But in the case above, character disturbance is equally shared by both parties. The victim is the unsuspecting fiance and husband. The woman complaining has a history of inviting problems not only into her own life, but also into the lives of those she supposedly loves and those problems are a direct outgrowth of her own character issues.
Imagine for a moment that the spouse and not the complainer was the writer of this letter. Imagine also that the genders of the parties were reversed, so that the spouse was lamenting learning that the person she thought was her faithful husband had all the while been fooling around with someone primarily because it was just so exciting and irresistible and was keeping the fact hidden even as they formalized their engagement and professed their wedding vows. I wonder if you’d then see this person in the same light you view this woman now.
I am 54 years of age…. 6 years ago I divorced a manipulative man, we were married 26 years. I was telling a friend the other day that he often said he hated when his sister used to manipulate him, he hated it so much that he would not allow any manipulation in any of his relationships. I did not realize until today what was wrong with the relationship, I just knew I could not live with it a minute longer. However, divorce does not hault their manipulation but rather heightens it. I feel like I am on the brink of discovery and can’t wait to get ahold of your book. And yes, I am a most compassionate and understanding woman. I really believe I need help with drawing the line and not allowing these character flaws to affect me. So far three new relationships have come on the scene each lasting 6 months to a years… the last lasting one month until I saw the same red flags. How do I attract more positive men?
Thanks for writing in, Susan. While disturbed characters of all types are astute at picking out the vulnerable, that doesn’t necessarily mean you can’t “attract” the right person for a healthy relationship. Knowing yourself and affirming your worth in a balanced way is the key. If you “send the right message” about your self to others and open the relationship door only to those who’ve demonstrated their integrity, you’ll create much better chances for success. All the best to you in that endeavor!
Dr Simon I have read In Sheep’s Clothing and the letter above and your reply to it and I have to congratulate you – it is a breath of fresh air! I would also like to reply to Shannon and say speaking as a wife who offered an amicable divorce to my husband, when I sensed his interest was diverted!!
His response was to lie,cheat and bring STDs home, while telling me the women at work were efficient and had a sophisticated and fun loving attitude to life. Perhaps Shannon should try being a client in a couple of STD clinics before making such comments. Putting up these arguments is the equivalent of giving character disordered individuals the largesse that car boot sales give thieves.
I have been reading this blog again and just re-read this post and it’s amazing to me how unaware this woman is as to her narcissism, her pathological behavior. The voice in her letter to Dr. Simon doesn’t sound anxious, it sounds light and carefree as if she has no understanding at all of her behavior and it’s effects on others.
Thanks for the comment, Michael. The key to understanding the most pathological aspect of this woman’s key dynamics is the fact that her light and carefree response naturally and logically suggests she has no understanding. But the reality is that even though it’s “as if” she’s unaware, she’s fully aware. She’s had input from a variety of sources for many years. She knows, but her modes of thinking and her patterns of behavior are so compatible with her image of herself (i.e. as psychologists say, “ego-syntonic”) that she perfectly comfortable making her case and possibly even thinks that most others should view things the same way (even though she knows many don’t). That’s why I repeat the mantra at my workshops: “they actually do ‘see,’ they simply ‘disagree.’” I know many persons in relationships with such folks (or even therapists trying to treat them) who delude themselves into thinking: “if I can just get them to see.” Insight is not what they need, just course correction.
I have read, in other books, that covert-agressive, narcissistic behaviour, is unconscious, that these manipulative people who cause untold emotional damage to their
families and others are at some level unaware their behaviour.
Is there a difference between manipulative(covert-aggressive) people, as described in your book,”In Sheep’s Clothing”, and the Narcissistic Personality Disorder?
My book places the covert-aggressive in a context that includes the narcissistic personality. I go into even greater depth on the various other characters in my book “Character Disturbance.” I also make the point that a person can possess traits of more than one personality type. But perhaps the most important point I make in the discussion, is that for the most part, truly “neurotic” and “unaware” are a rarity these days among the more disturbed characters, including covert-aggressives and narcissists. Traditionally-oriented therapists and others still like to claim that these folks “simply don’t see” what they’re doing, whereas I insist “they do see, but they disagree” with the general perspective and approach we’d like them to adopt in life. It’s particularly dangerous to assume that a person who is far too self-absorbed, lacks sufficient regard for others, and uses tactics to manipulate and control them doesn’t really understand what they’re doing. Besides that, most of the time, when potential victims try far too hard to “understand” their abusers, they inadvertently “enable” abusive behavior to continue. Best to hold folks accountable.
Many thanks for this perspective, Dr. Simon. These people confuse me, I suppose most of us tend to give them “the benefit of the doubt”,as I have done. However,eventually,if one has suffered enough, there comes a point where one draws
a line in the sand.
I’ve ordered your book on character disturbance,and look forward to gaining more insight in to this most unfortunate
condition.
I think that it is important to bear in mind that none of us chooses our genetic, or environmental programming, and perhaps
the exploiter and exploitee are both dancing to the tune of the “distant Piper”, and both have lessons to learn!
Personally, I’m learning a lot about myself, courtesy of the people I allowed to manipulate me!
i have been living with a ca for 15 years. for about 2 yrs, i have been calling him out on his tactics to no avail. in fact, it only escalates the situation. there have been incidents of physical abuse. i have 3 children and do not want my family to fall apart. my husband has read everything on your website and has “seen the light”. is that possible? is there any hope of change?
Excellent questions, Tarah. Naturally, it’s not really possible for me to accurately comment directly on anyone’s particular circumstances. But a few principles I advocate in my writings might be of help: “Seeing the light” presumes that a person really didn’t know what they were doing or why they were doing it in the first place, which in the case of disturbed characters is very rare. But even if there’s been a lack of awareness, finally “getting it” or seeing the light is not what really matters. What matters is resolute, firm, CONSISTENT, change in behavior, rooted in the internalization of different principles of conduct. So, to answer your key question, change is indeed always possible. However, the burden of change is always on the person who needs to correct their maladaptive patterns. You’ll know when change is really occurring not when he says the right things or apologizes all the time, but rather when it’s clear he’s doing the extremely hard work of reshaping his behavior – consistently and firmly enough to demonstrate a real commitment to change.
I am concerned about my grand daughter, and worried about my son. You see the mother of my granddaughter has shown some issues Im really really concerned about. I dont know my grand daughter will stay safe, Kenzi my grand daughters mother was raised to lie, and manipulate. Her mother taught her, now it seems she has improved on it. My son has held three jobs in the five year relationship, when he is working she refuses to stay home instead insist on going to her mother (who btw lives with her mother and father) and is addicted to alcahol. and makes excuses for not bringing my grand daugher to my son. They met five years ago, doing meth. we have had run ins with CPS, and seems to get better while Kenzi is in trouble with CPS, but Kenzi seems need to demand all the attention, if he is playing with his daughter she has to interfer everytime. She does not get up with my grand daughter, feed her breakfast, or see to any of her needs. But wants contact when Kenzi needs to feel entertained. Or for family events for show. The last time my son got a job, Kenzi got really really mad, she had taken ALL the money they had and went to CA with her father, sister, ect. My son is unwelcome at her mother’s home. Kenzi used to flip lighters by my sons hair. Anyway she was mad, he had looked into enrolling in college, and gotten a job. Its like when he is climbing out of the pit, she loves to shake the ladder to make him shake until he falls. she cheats on him and lies to him. He is afraid that if he leaves she will keep my grand daughter from him. She used to laugh when my grand daughter cried. She doesnt try to comfort her, and seemes to get jelous when we buy things for my grand daughter. My grand daughter much like my son, just wants her attention, and seems to be glued to her to get it. I dont understand. Please advise. She is smart enough to know when to put on the show. Im worried. if my son pulls away from her, she tells him he will never see his daughter again.
The situation you describe seems fairly complicated, with abundant character issues abounding for all the adults involved. In the middle of this is a child who sorely needs a safe, supportive, and appropriately nurturing environment as well as guidance. Child protective services and the courts are generally willing to do whatever possible to ensure a child’s welfare. If there’s an adult in the crowd that can demonstrate with actions – not words – that they can faithfully provide for the child’s needs, it would behoove them to make that case to the authorities.
Joan,
Thank you for your comments and for taking the time to write. Although I don’t do counseling of any type anymore, I do conduct phone consultations either with therapists wanting collaboration on a case, or with individuals who have read either of my books and wish to clarify or expand upon the principles outlined in those books. I generally limit contacts to a maximum two-hour initial contact and one-hour contact at 6 months for follow-up if necessary. For many reasons, I cannot give specific advice with respect to any individual’s particular circumstances. However, sometime elaborating or clarifying the principles advanced in my work proves quite helpful.
Again, thanks for taking the time to write. If you think the assistance I outlined above might be helpful in your situation, don’t hesitate to contact me again through this forum.
gs